Spoiler warning: The below interview contains FULL SPOILERS for Dragon Age: The Veilguard.

Dragon Age: The Veilguard finally debuted this Halloween, concluding with an intense final act full of shocking twists and devastating consequences. Unsurprisingly, choice and consequence both ended up being integral threads in the fabric of the game. Whether it’s sacrificing one city to save another, deciding the future of the griffins, or, yes, choosing just what happens to our bald elven antagonist Solas, you’re making some pretty big moves on the continent of Thedas.

Fans have been quick to theorize what we might expect in a potential Dragon Age 5, especially after the massive reveals we got in this installment of the series. While DA5 remains unconfirmed and Bioware currently has no plans to release DLC for The Veilguard, questions linger about the future of Thedas now that the war with the elven gods has seemingly come to an end.

With the dust settled, IGN sat down with Dragon Age Creative Director John Epler and Game Director Corinne Busche in a 45-minute conversation to dissect lore and talk spoilers for the conclusion of the game. This includes the chilling secret post-credit scene which features a group of sinister voices whispering their plans for the future of Thedas and, potentially, a future installment of the franchise.

Before we get started, I actually just got the secret post credit scene. Ominous! What’s the role or the aim of these mysterious voices in influencing the events of Thedas?

Epler: These voices have been influencing events in very subtle, very light touch ways to get towards a specific outcome. As to what their ultimate goal is, we’re not going to get into that quite yet. But the idea is that they’ve always been kind of in the background. They know how to say the right thing at the right time to nudge towards an outcome that they want.

It doesn’t mean that any of these characters, any of the people shown in that ending don’t have free will. They all still made their choices. Loghain still chose to betray Cailin because of his fear of what the Wardens were going to do. Bartrand still locked Varric and Hawke away in the Deep Roads because of greed. But who gave Bartrand the idea that this was the expedition worth taking? Who was the soldier in the room with Loghain who maybe just casually mentioned, “oh, I’m sure glad the Wardens are on our side this time”? No one’s being pushed. No one’s being forced to do anything, but [the voices] are very good at knowing the right person and finding that little place where they can, with a gentle nudge, shift events in their favor.

Busche: I like how you say that, John, because it’s almost as if through their gentle nudgings, their whispers, they’re just stoking those feelings and those desires or insecurities that these characters within the world already had. That was already within them.

Loghain, Bartrand, the magisters, and the Breach are the largest figures in these illustrations. Why them? Why, for example, Bartrand versus Meredith and Orsino?

Epler: Without getting into what maybe the future holds for them, their goal is to remove the elven gods from the table. Again, [the gods] are the most powerful forces on Thedas up to this point. And whatever [the voices’] plans may be, another powerful magical force on the table like that is going to pose some obstacles. And I think the other thing about the Executors, they’re very risk averse. They’ve been playing the extremely long game because the one thing they don’t want to do is leave any of their pieces in check. They’re always going to go for the option that keeps them the furthest away from harm, while also advancing these goals.

Who are the Executors?

Even hardcore Dragon Age fans might not recognize the Executors Epler mentions here, a mysterious force representing the “voices across the sea.” We may get a sense of their plans in the secret post-credit scene, but they were first mentioned in Dragon Age: Inquisition via a War Table mission and in multiplayer. A chapter in the Dragon Age novel Tevinter Nights also features an Executor as a participant in a meeting held by Inquisition agent Charter.

The gods are a big unknown for them. No one really knew just until the Veilguard what was going to happen with them. So if you look back chronologically to Dragon Age: Origins, there’s definitely a chain of events that leads from then to the gods being taken off the table. Solas’ dagger is the red lyrium idol from the Deep Roads. Corypheus obviously had a big part to play in weakening the veil and setting events in motion. One thing that I think is fun to think about is Thedas has been around for a very long time, but these world ending events are happening with such incredible frequency all of a sudden. Why now? Why in this age, why this specific time? You start to get a sense of why that might be – not because anyone’s going in and controlling kingdoms or taking over armies. Someone is seeing the end game coming and maybe they’re setting up for it.

Hopefully we get to see these voices explored a bit more in a potential Dragon Age 5?

Epler: Never say never.

I know that some people were surprised to let go of the Keep this time around. Now that it’s all said and done, are there more choices you wish you’d carried over or included?

Busche: The big thing for us is we wanted to make this story, every single choice you make, feel relevant to it. One thing that we could have stated more clearly or maybe alluded to more clearly in the game is the idea that just because these choices from the past library of games didn’t necessarily impact this particular story, that doesn’t mean they’re gone. This is a chance for us to really key in to what matters with these events and what’s happening in Northern Thedas. I do fully expect that these choices going clear back to Dragon Age Origins will again matter. So just wanted to be on record with that. Every one of your choices that people have made throughout their Dragon Age journey, those are still your choices. And if you’ve seen the secret 2D ending we talked about, some of these events being quite pertinent. It’s easy to see how those choices can and will be relevant into the future.

“Every one of your choices that people have made throughout their Dragon Age journey, those are still your choices.”

The Veilguard is full of these massive lore reveals, which really started when we learned the truth of the elven gods in Trespasser. What were ways that the Evanuris itself changed in development between Inquisition and The Veilguard?

Epler: It’s funny because in reality there hasn’t been a significant shift in how we perceive the Evanuris from the end of Trespasser to now. If you have the art book, if you look at some of the old visual designs from [Project] Joplin, we had this idea of this very clear distance between Elgar’nan and Ghilan’nain. Ghilan’nain is the mad scientist. She’s in search of creating the perfect form. She’s all about experimentation. Elgar’nan is much more the tyrant. One thing that I love about Elgar’nan – he spends a not inconsiderable amount of his magic power looking handsome, looking normal, because he’s also incredibly vain. I think that speaks to his character. In Veilguard, he doesn’t show up until Fire and Ice because one thing he is also extremely, extremely cautious.

Busche: One of the things that was really interesting in development, one of my favorite stories is we knew we were going to explore some of these themes through the regrets that the Veilguard witness together in the Lighthouse. When we actually saw those come together and we saw the potential of the Crossroads, that’s when we decided, actually we want to go a little bit deeper and let people relive some of these moments through Solas’ rebellion and even see Ghilan’nain before the full extent of the Blight, the corruption, the changes to her had taken shape. And I think it was just really an interesting sign that there was something there that captured our imagination as well and to be able to explain that and have players relive it was a really fun discovery.

Can you tell us about the fate of the other elven gods like Sylaise and June? Are these gods now mortal in the Fade after the defeat of their Archdemons, or were they weakened enough to die in their prison?

Epler: Yeah, I mean, so we haven’t been super explicit about what happens when the gods die. In my mind, they’re either dead or they’re the closest thing to it. When a Warden kills an Archdemon, in Origins and DA2 and DAI, before the Gods are out in the world, there is part of that elven god’s spirit that is bound to that dragon. It finds the nearest source of Blight. Now, if it’s a darkspawn, a darkspawn has a direct connection to the Blight. There’s enough energy there for it to rebuild a body, rebuild itself as an Archdemon. When it goes into a Warden, that connection is very different and what ends up happening is essentially the fragment of the God spirit and the fragment of the Warden annihilate each other. So nothing to go back to the god. So if they’re there, they’re a shadow of their former self. But obviously when Elgar’nan and Ghilan’nain come out, there’s not that distance. There’s not that need to use the Blight as essentially an in-between medium and they can just regain that fragment of their soul. They’re now mortal, but they’re just as powerful as they were before.

Busche: And this is part of a theme within The Veilguard. We’re tackling some pretty big subject matter, some of the largest outstanding mysteries within Dragon Age lore. So we want to tie up some of those loose ends, give really satisfying answers, but we also want to leave the door open just a little bit. So questions like that, what happens to the rest of the gods? Those are themes that we want to be able to explore, but also be able to advance the franchise.

We learned that the Tevinter Old Gods were just the dragon thralls of the elven gods. What are the implications for Tevinter here? Will this totally reshape how they understand their history and their culture?

Epler: There’s going to be a lot of people seeking power in various ways through the process of rebuilding Thedas. Because again, no matter where you are in Thedas, the war against the gods had an impact. And I think speaking of Tevinter in particular, there are going to be those who feel that sharing the truth is going to be the best course for people. There are going to be people who are motivated to lie. There’s going to be people who are seeking to be proclaimed the new prophets of the old Gods and saying that that person over there is liar. In a world with so many unreliable narrators, smart and savvy political operators can use that to their own benefit. And, I mean, Tevinter is rife with people who bluntly were maybe not openly on the side of the Venatori, but certainly wouldn’t have been too upset if they’d won – they’re going to have their own motivations.

Busche: It makes me think of the choice at the end of Bellara’s arc, in fact, where you’re literally taking this repository of ancient elven knowledge and choosing to share it, to make it known or not. At the time, that seems like perhaps an inconsequential decision for the moment, but when you look at the future of Thedas and what it means for the elven people, it’s perhaps one of the biggest.

After everything the team learns through Solas’ memories, Harding wonders if they’ve disproven the Maker exists. Is that the case? Or is the Maker, like the elven and Tevinter gods, real just not in the way that we think he is?

Epler: That’s one mystery that I personally don’t want to ever give a definitive answer to one way or the other. The moment you start to try to explain it or try to provide a definitive answer, I do think that takes some of the mystery out of the world.

“What the Maker is to Andraste followers and what the Maker could be to everyone else could be two completely different things.”

For what Harding’s saying, the question you asked: is the Maker what we think it is? Maybe, maybe not. There could be something completely different to what the Chantry is saying. I think that’s one of those wells that we are always going to want to keep open because I do think it adds some interesting context. What the Maker is to Andraste followers and what the Maker could be to everyone else could be two completely different things.

Busche: I also love what it does, from a world building and storytelling perspective, to the power structures and then the more personal and intimate. For instance, there’s a conversation where Rook and team are sitting around the table in the Lighthouse and Rook gets to lend their perspective: “I still believe,” or “I never believed,” or “maybe we did disprove it.” Those are questions of faith that I think are so interesting to character and world building. And then consider the power and political influence that the Chantry has. If these questions are raised, does that power go away? Well, I doubt it.

Epler: In a world that’s rebuilding, in a world that’s just had these massive revelations occur, I can see people in the Chantry are probably going to use that as an opportunity to try to seize more power. The more we shy away from ever being a hundred percent clear, the more interesting stories we can tell there.

The reveal that the first elves came from spirits is huge, obviously. Can you speak to that a bit? When do we see the shift from spirit-created elves to the elves we know today?

Epler: One interesting thing about that reveal actually is originally it was going to show up as part of Bellara’s personal quest. That was going to be how Anaris was able to turn elves into demons so quickly and so easily, how he’s able to start creating his army. We realized maybe putting a massive reveal that changes the state of an entire lineage of the world? Probably not something that needs to go directly in a personal quest. But yeah, I mean, it is a massive reveal, it does change a lot of their history.

That’s something that is the theme of opening these questions about where all these groups came from and what their origins are.

Busche: And I do personally really love what you just touched on there, John, which is the differences but also parallels behind the origins of each of the lineages. Taash’s arc explores having dragon’s fire in your veins. We know dwarves are the children of the Titans. They can hear the song of the Stone. Knowing now elves have their origins from spirits. Really fascinating parallels that, again, create some interesting storytelling possibilities.

Speaking of the Titans: we learn Solas effectively made them Tranquil. We’ve heard rumblings that the Rite of Tranquility can be reversed. Do you think that’s something that could happen with the Titans?

Epler: I mean, in the fullness of time anything can happen. I will say that’s one of those mysteries that we’re probably going to keep close to the chest.

Have some of these reveals always been part of the history of Thedas? Or were certain things developed as part of The Veilguard?

Epler: It’s a tricky question because I’ve been on since Origins, but I used to be in QA and Cinematic, so I wasn’t as privy to the deep lore discussions back then. I will say since Trespasser, since Inquisition, these are all things that we’ve been talking about for at least that long. So it’s part of the franchise for as long as I’ve been around on the lore side of things. But I mean, that’s the thing, as we tell stories, as we start to figure out where we want the franchise to go, what we want to happen, ideas change. Another reason why I’m so hesitant to just drop lore into the world without a storytelling reason is sometimes something we thought we wanted to do we realize maybe isn’t the most interesting way to handle that. And then we go back to the drawing board. The balancing act is always, you never want to have lied to the players, and you never want to outright contradict something you said before, but the beauty of unreliable narrators is you can twist the truth about 45 degrees to the left and do something interesting without ever contradicting your past self.

“Since Trespasser, since Inquisition, these are all things that we’ve been talking about for at least that long.”

Busche: I will say that I think the simple answer is that both approaches are true. There are elements that were heading through to a pretty clear conclusion. There were some that were a little bit more mysterious, but some of the most fun that, at least for me we’ve had are those moments when you and I are looking at these follower arcs and the impact of the stories and conceiving of how does this tie together when we revisit some of these themes. So there is an intentionality about what we do going forward. And again, we don’t want to share too much on that, but certainly it influenced some of our decisions and some of the reveals along the way.

Varric – may he rest in peace – reveals that Solas’ dagger is actually the infamous red lyrium idol. How was Solas able to restore it to its original form?

Epler: Would it surprise you to know it was another ritual? Solas does love his rituals.

Classic Solas.

Epler: Yeah, so in the time between Trespasser and The Veilguard, Solas was able to cleanse the Blight from the dagger and restore it to its former shape. One of the reasons it was hidden in the idol was to keep it hidden. It’s an incredibly powerful artifact. It’s not the kind of thing you want falling into the hands of a Venatori magister or an Antaam. Obviously, at the end of DA2, Meredith tries to use it, turns it into a sword. We all know what happened there. Rest in…I would say rest in pieces Meredith because she’s now a giant piece of red lyrium. But it is an artifact that is tremendously powerful. Only Solas knew how to make it its most powerful, which was the cleansed version of the dagger. As long as its red lyrium, it still has the Blight in it, which means you’re always going to be susceptible to the whims and whispers of Blight. We saw it happen with Bartrand. It drove him completely mad. Even when Varric picks up the piece in DA2, he can still hear some of the whispers.

So for Solas, before he used this thing, he needed to make sure it was purified, it was cleansed. Obviously, the Evanuris made their own dagger out of red lyrium. They don’t care, they’re already blighted. It’s all the same to them. But for Solas, it was a ritual that he had to do. We talk about the elves following Solas at the end of Trespasser. It’s not said explicitly in the game, but one of the things they’re helping do is getting this ritual ready so we could cleanse this dagger.

Busche: One of the interesting properties of the idol has always been how inherently malleable it is. That’s something very unique to it that we absolutely wanted to lean into. What was so fun for us is there were theories we saw out there in the fandom YouTube videos about what was this idol? And indeed did Solas convert it to the dagger and a credit to those fans that figured it out. I don’t know how they pieced it together, but cheers to them.

I’ve always wondered what the idol is actually to.

Epler: Solas is a very nostalgic person. I’d say an idol to Mythal. It’s his guilt, his regrets poured into this thing. Because, as Corinne said, it’s malleable. That’s the shape it took.

The final act has choices with resounding consequences. Solas’ fate, for instance, can vary wildly. How did y’all land on the different endings for him? Will his fate affect future games?

Epler: I can’t answer the second one yet. It was the three fantasies of dealing with Solas. We have Solavellans or people who like Solas, they want to redeem him. They think he needs to come back to the good side. At the end, we wanted to make sure that those players had that opportunity, especially Solavellans who wanted their Inquisitor to have that tragic embrace in eternity with Solas. We were very vague about what happens on the other side of that, but it was important to us to make sure that Solavellans had that opportunity.

“There’s just this acknowledgement of, yes, that’s right, Solas. I was smarter than you, eat it.”

I will say I was personally the one who really wanted an opportunity to punch out Solas. I was the big advocate for the fight ending way back when. I had it pictured as a big knockdown drag out fight where you and him basically fist fought. In my mind, it was very over the top. I think what we got was a better ending, but I wanted to make sure that the players who chose the option in Trespasser where they said “Solas, have I ever wanted to hear one of your big long explanations?” That’s for them, that’s their opportunity to say: “nope, Solas, you’re the bad guy. I’m just going to beat the crap out of you. Here we go.”

I think outsmart is a very specific fantasy. Because here’s this guy who’s been kind of needling you the entire game, he’s been kind of a little condescending. Even if you build a rapport, you can always tell he thinks he’s just a little bit more clever, just a little bit smarter than you. So getting the opportunity to outsmart the Dread Wolf was something that we thought was important to allow players to do because what more satisfying way to deal with this smug jerk who’s been in your head barking at you for the last 40 to 60 hours at the end where it matters the most, than to be the one who outsmarts him. It was important to give players that opportunity to pull one over on him. And I love the line he says at the end. Because in fight, obviously he goes off, he’s screaming, he’s frothing, he’s angry. At the end of outsmart, he says, “And I have finally met my match.” There’s just this acknowledgement of, yes, that’s right, Solas. I was smarter than you, eat it. And yeah, I think there’s just those three fantasies of dealing with it.

Busche: Even in that moment, John, he still can’t quite get over that little bit of smugness of how well he’s taught you. And that one has to sting a little bit, that had to sting. I will absolutely confirm that in so many meetings, more than I can count, John would tell me about this fantasy of punching out Solas and that knockdown drag out fight.

Put ’em in the ring!

Busche: And, look, as the resident Solavellan, that’s appalling! I could never. I will say I absolutely love that there’s two variants of the redeem ending as well, whether your Inquisitor romanced Solas or not. Very important to us that you could have that satisfying ending whether you were sympathetic to Solas, even if you know he was misguided. But, also, if you cried like I did at that epilogue slide at the end of Trespasser with the Solavellan romance we knew we needed to pay that off. And my goodness, that one matters to people. It was really intimidating to approach that with the weight and reverence it deserved.

I will say also, we didn’t touch on the sacrifice ending.

Let’s talk about it.

Busche: Everybody dies. There’s a moment there that I think is one of the most powerful, where you see Solas, your friends rushing up to help you and to try and stop Solas, and seeing him unleash his powers to turn people to stone on your companions, seeing them fall in that way, that sense of helplessness, that one really rips my heart out. It does.

It’s such a reminder that all of these events have always been on a knife’s edge. John, like you said, these world-ending events have happened with so much frequency. It’s only been because of luck, in some cases, that a person has stopped it.

Epler: Well, yeah, exactly. I mean, you had the Warden who happened to fetch the treaties. You had the Inquisitor who happened to be in the right place at the right time to get the mark instead of Corypheus. And I mean, that is ultimately, I think one of the, just kind of circling all the way back to the beginning. One of the characteristics of all the heroes is they act in unexpected ways, and that’s how they’re able to thwart the end of the world so many times in a row is they’re just the right person, at the right place, at the right time. I think, yeah, the sacrifice ending is a great example of sometimes that luck can run out. You need luck and preparedness. One of the things we really wanted to emphasize with that ending is it’s still a victory, but it’s more of a pyrrhic victory than the other ones. You won, you stop the end of the world, but the example that you set kind of dies with you to some degree. There’s a monument set up, but Thedas is going to be in a dark place at this point. I think it’s an interesting way to look at that ending in particular.

In the final act, there are two major companion choices. First, whether or not Neve and Bellara are blighted and captured by Elgar’nan. Second, perhaps the toughest choice: whether or not Harding or Davrin will lead a distraction team and, ultimately, die. Why these choices and why these companions?

Epler: So for Neve and Bellara. The two groups that have been the most directly affected by the gods up to this point are obviously the elves – it’s their gods that are back – and Tevinter, Minrathous. You know, the Venatori have either fully seized power or have made some pretty big inroads in Minrathous, depending on which city you save. And the gods have come back and brought their dragons and proclaimed them as the gods of the Tevinter people. So both Bellara and Neve have a direct investment. Not that everyone else doesn’t, but they have the most direct investment in stopping the gods at this point. We wanted to give you that choice between these two characters who, again, have a very personal score to settle with the gods and are both mages whereas Emmrich obviously wants to stop the end of the world, but doesn’t have quite that same connection to the events that are going on. So those two made the most sense as to who would disable them.

The other thing is something that shows up in the visuals. Minrathous, Tevinter in general has always been kind of…there’s echoes of ancient elven magic in everything to Tevinter and Minrathous does because it’s meant as almost a cargo cult imitation of what the ancient elves were capable of. The ancient elves worked lyrium into their buildings, Tevinter uses gold and jewels because they don’t have the capacity to work lyrium. So it made the most sense for them.

“There are a lot of clues scattered throughout the game of how all these things may connect.”

I’ll say for the other choice, we knew Harding had to be one of them, and then we had to ask ourselves: we’ve got a fan favorite returning character from Inquisition. Who could possibly equal that in terms of making this difficult choice? It’s like, well, Assan. Assan and Davrin. Davrin obviously has a direct link to this at this point because of Weisshaupt. He’s got a very personal stake in it, and it made sense for the two of them to be the ones to be the choice to lead the distraction team, because again, we want to find those personal connections between the characters and the events that are going on. And, you know, the case of Harding, she has so much investment in this story because she’s been living it since Inquisition. And then Davrin. Davrin’s entire order just fell at the end of the previous act. He’s going to have a real strong investment in stopping the guys too here.

Busche: One thing that’s so interesting about that choice too, the Harding and Davrin choice is it actually presented some interesting complexity and some emotional investment we could tie into, which always makes for a more satisfying, I will say harder choice to make. I’ll say in one of my playthroughs, Taash and Harding were in a relationship together and I happened to be romancing Davrin. Impossible. Impossible decision in that moment.

I do have one last question. We hear during Taash’s personal quest about this “coming storm.” Does that have anything to do with the voices across the sea? Is it something we’re going to explore?

Epler: How do I put this? There are a lot of clues scattered throughout the game of how all these things may connect. I would say Taash’s arc is obviously a good one, the end of Bellara’s arc and some of the codex entries in Arlathan may be another place to start digging for clues. I’m a big fan of scattering a lot of little hints and seeing what people pick up.

Alyssa Mora is an Associate Syndication Editor at IGN. Gaming & Entertainment are her lifeblood, particularly when they involve romance and/or moody vampires.